多个国家组织换帅（美媒追问湖北为何换帅）

2月13日，崔天凯大使接受美国全国公共广播电台（NPR）“早间新闻”（Morning Edition）节目主持人英斯基普（Steve Inskeep）采访，就中国抗击新冠肺炎疫情、中美关系等回答了提问。

NPR是美国最大的公共广播电台，其旗舰栏目“早间新闻”是全美早间电台节目中最受欢迎、听众最多的之一。

采访部分实录如下：

英斯基普：我们今天采访目的是讨论中国应对新冠肺炎疫情的情况。我们的编辑密切跟踪涉华情况，认为这次疫情是中国近年来面临的最严重危机，因为它既是卫生危机，也是经济危机和政治危机。您认为，相比中国近年来面临的其他危机，此次危机到底有多严重？

We have an editor who closely follows China, who regards this as China's worst crisis in years, because it is a health crisis, but also an economic crisis and a political crisis. How severe is this, in your view, compared to other crises that China has faced in recent years?

崔大使：（新冠肺炎疫情）是对中国的巨大挑战，某种程度上来说，对整个国际社会也是一个巨大挑战。随着社会发展和经济增长，应如何解决公共卫生需求、应对像这样的传染性疾病，这是对整个国际社会和所有政府的挑战。有人说挑战是前所未有的，我们的应对措施也是前所未有的。这是事实。我们正尽全力防控疫情，治疗患者，并努力降低疫情对经济和社会活动的影响。我们仍在全力以赴。

This is a very big challenge to us. And I think in a sense, this is a very big challenge to the entire international community. As we develop, as our economy grows, how (do) we take care of public health needs, how do we respond to epidemics like this? So this is a challenge for the entire international community and for any government. Somebody is saying that this is (an) unprecedented challenge, and the response is also unprecedented. I think this is quite true. And we are doing utmost to contain and control the virus and provide treatment to the people and reduce its impact on economic and social activities. We are still doing whatever we can do right now.

英斯基普：这是否已构成对中国治理体系有效性的一次考验？

Has this become a test of the effectiveness of China's governing system?

崔大使：正如我刚才所说，这对任何政府、任何治理体系都是巨大挑战。

As I said, this could be a big challenge to any government, to any governance system.

英斯基普：但当前面临考验的是您的政府。

But it's your government that is facing the test.

崔大使：中国处在（疫情的）最前沿。事实上，在此次疫情爆发前，我们就已确定了推进国家治理体系和治理能力现代化的目标，这符合中国改革进程的总体目标。此次疫情爆发印证了我们确定这一目标的正确性，我们要尽全力实现。但这是一个不断发展的过程，期间总会出现新的挑战，我们也总要取得新的进步，而不是驻足不前。我相信我们将从此次疫情防控中学到更多并做得更好。

Actually, you see, we're at the forefront. Actually long before this outbreak, we already set a goal for ourselves, which is the modernization of our governance system and governance capacity. We believe this should be the overall goal for our reform process. And this epidemic has proved that we have set the right goal. So we have to do our best to reach that goal. But this is an ongoing process, you see, there will always be new challenges, and we always have to make new progress. We should never stop. I'm sure we'll learn more from this outbreak and do a better job.

英斯基普：您刚才说确定了正确的目标。那么问题是你们做错了什么需要纠正。我知道处于此次疫情爆发中心的湖北省两名高级别官员已被解职。什么地方出了错？

Set the right goal, you said. And then there's the question of what went wrong that you would like to correct. I know two top officials in Hubei Province, the center of this outbreak, have been relieved of their duties. What went wrong?

崔大使：首先，这是一种全新的病毒，一开始人们对它知之甚少，因此需要一个加深对其了解的过程。从识别病毒到掌握其性质及传播途径，都需要时间。对任何人来说，了解这一切都需要过程。

First of all, this is a new virus. Actually, nobody knew it very well at the beginning. So there was a process for people to get to know more about it, to identify the virus, to know its qualities, the transmission routes. All this has taken some time. And for everybody, I think there is some kind of a learning process.

英斯基普：我知道卫生系统官员会说，中国的应对其实并不那么慢，但两名官员被解职说明出了问题。到底什么地方出了问题？

I understand health officials will say that China's response has not necessarily been that slow, but something went wrong because two officials were removed. What went wrong?

崔大使：我们现在所做的一切，包括人事调整等，都是为了一个目标，就是响应人民的呼声，满足人民的需要。这是我们当前所做一切的唯一目标。在这样特殊的情况下，自然要给予能者更多责任，也是重任。

Everything we are doing now, including all these personnel changes, has one goal--to respond to the call of the people and meet the needs of the people. This is the only goal for everything we are doing now. So naturally, under such special circumstances, people who can do the job better should be given the responsibility to do it. And this is very heavy responsibility.

英斯基普：是不是还有部分原因在于疫情造成严重经济损失和民众不安情绪，中国政府需（通过此举）展现其正对公众的不快情绪作出反应？

Is part of it, that there was so much economic damage and also so much public unrest that your government needed to show that it was responding to public unhappiness.

崔大使：面对疫情一些人会感到恐慌，这再自然不过。所以我们坚持公开、透明等基本原则。我们相信公开、透明将使人们更有信心，更好了解疫情包括风险何在及如何防控。我们每天都提供相关数据，就是为了告诉人民我们正竭尽全力抗击疫情，让他们放心。这么做当然也有助于我们消除假消息、破除谣言及摒弃伪科学。

I think it's only natural that some people would be panicking under the circumstances. So we always have, as one of our basic principles, openness and transparency. We believe openness and transparency will give people more confidence, will give them more awareness about the virus, what are the real risks and how to prevent them. And we are providing, you see, all the figures, the numbers on a daily basis, just to make people reassured that we're doing our most to confront it. And this will certainly help us to dispel any fake news, rumors or what people call pseudoscience.

英斯基普：重新任命官员也是让他们放心？

Reassigning the officials, that was part of the reassurance?

崔大使：我说过，我们正全力满足人民的需要。谁有能力做得更好，就让谁来做。

As I said, we are doing everything possible to meet the needs of the people. So anybody who can do the job better should be given the opportunity to do it.

英斯基普：因为您提到公开、透明。我想问关于李文亮医生的问题，他去年底率先就新冠病毒敲响警钟，但却被拘留及训诫。此事在他死后更受关注。他为何被拘留？

Because you mentioned openness and transparency, I need to ask about Dr. Li Wenliang, who was a doctor who sounded the alarm late last year about the coronavirus, was detained by the authorities and made to retract what he had said. This get(s) even more attention after he himself died of the virus. Why was he detained and made to retract what he had said?

崔大使：首先，他没有被拘留。有人找他谈话了，但他没有被拘留。否则他不可能还在医院工作。

No, first of all, he was not detained. I think somebody talked to him, but he was not detained. Otherwise he could not be working in the hospital.

英斯基普：他被盘问了是吗？您指他被盘问而不是被拘留了，是吗？

He was questioned right? Then you're saying he was questioned, not detained. Is that correct?

崔大使：他是一名医生，一名好医生，他的逝世让我们所有人感到悲伤。他尽心尽职、非常专业。他从工作接触到的具体案例中识别到有危险临近，从职业本能出发产生了警觉。但一开始并不是所有人都能理解和认可他，因为这是一种全新的病毒，大家对其缺乏认知。

You see, he was a doctor. He was a good doctor. We really, all of us feel really sad for his death. He was a devoted doctor. He was a good professional. And he saw some coming danger from the specific cases he dealt with. As a doctor, he was alerted. Not everybody quite understood and appreciated him at the very beginning, because this is a new virus. Nobody knew anything about it.

英斯基普：您是说是他被要求撤回有关言论的原因，因为人们对他披露的内容缺乏理解？

You're saying that's why he was made to retract what he had said, because people didn't understand what he was revealing.

崔大使：作为一名医生，他可以从具体案例中有所发现。但作为政府，如要发布警示或发表公告，则需基于更多证据和科学分析，而这么做需要时间。当然，我们现在是基于“后见之明”，认识到李医生说对了。他之后仍留在医院继续工作，后来因公殉职，这令人悲痛。但还有成千上万优秀医务工作者正奋战在一线冒着生命危险救治病患，他只是他们中的一员。

Yeah. You see, as a doctor, he could find things from specific cases. But for the government to make any alert, any announcement, they need more evidence. They have to base themselves on scientific analysis. All this will take some time. But now of course, with the benefit of hindsight, everybody knows that Dr. Li was right. And he continued to work in the hospital. It was very tragic for us that he, in his work, lost his life. But I think he was one of the good doctors. There are tens of thousands of them still working at the frontline, still risk(ing) their own lives to save other people.

英斯基普：政府是否因曾要求他撤回言论而欠他家人一个道歉？

Does the government owe his family an apology for having made him reverse what he revealed at the beginning?

崔大使：李医生去世后武汉市政府发表了声明，对其家人表示哀悼，全国各地的人们都在向他的家人表达哀悼和支持。

I think that the city government made some announcement at his passing away. They expressed their condolences. And there was such an expression of condolences and support to the family all over China.

英斯基普：从微博等社交媒体上的网民评论看，大家认为李医生去世印证了中国的制度缺乏公开透明。中国是存在不公开不透明的问题吗？

It seems from the amount of social media criticism that appeared in China on Weibo and other sites after his death, that people saw the specific story of Dr. Li as a symptom of a problem with China's system of a lack of openness, of a lack of transparency. Does this story reveal a problem with openness and transparency in China?

崔大使：李医生事实上是中国体制的一部分。他并非孤身一人，正如我刚才说的，成千上万甚至数百万的医务人员、社区工作者都奋战在一线，李医生是他们中的一员。他是个好医生，同时也是体制内的一分子。也许有些人并不了解，他是一名中国共产党党员。

Actually, I think Dr. Li is also part of the Chinese system. He's not alone. As I said there are tens of thousands, even millions of healthcare workers, community workers still working on the very frontline. Dr. Li was just one of them. He was an outstanding doctor, and he is part of the system. Maybe people are not aware, he was a member of the Communist Party.

英斯基普：您是说他发声这本身是中国共产党的功劳吗？我尊重这一点，但？

So you would like the Party to have credit for what he called out. I can respect that, but does it suggest that...

崔大使：我认为他是一名好党员。

I think he is a good member of the Party.

英斯基普：但这是否说明了他效力的政府并没有对他的警示持应有的开放态度吗？

Does this suggest, though, that the government that he served under was less open to a warning than should have been?

崔大使：我们是信奉公开透明的，但公开透明并不意味着人们可以在任何情况下随心所欲发表言论。政府做出反应时必须要持负责任的态度。无论采取什么样的措施，发表什么样的公告，像就此次事件发布警示等，都要基于充分的证据和科学依据。

You see, we believe in openness, but openness does not mean that you could say anything under any circumstances. The government has to respond in a responsible way. Whatever action the government is taking, whatever announcement or alert it is issuing, you have to base yourself on sufficient evidence and science.

英斯基普：当前在中国内部有很多不寻常的批评声音，李医生去世几天后，针对湖北省政府官员承认不知道问题的严重性、不知道新冠病毒感染者到底有多少，有一条社交媒体评论表示，一个多月过去，总算有句实话了。这是不是说明了政府在一定程度上失信于民？

One of the social media statements that was made in recent days after Dr. Li's death, in this moment of unusual criticism of China from within China, was a response to an official in Hubei Province acknowledging they don't really know the scale of the problem, they don't truly know how many people have been infected with coronavirus, and someone wrote on social media, it's been over a month, and finally a truthful sentence. That suggests that the government has lost some credibility with the people. Do you think that's true?

崔大使：我不会就社交媒体上的所有言论做出解释，也不应这么做。人们有发表自己看法的自由，我不能对他们的看法负责。

I'm not in a position to explain everything on the social media. And I don't think I should do that. People have their freedom to express their views, but I'm not responsible for their views.

英斯基普：我理解，但您能回答一下，中国政府是否失信于民？

I understand. But can you answer that question? Do you think that your government has lost some credibility with its people?

崔大使：说到政府，中国有不同层级的政府，这跟美国是一样的，我们有中央政府、省政府、市政府、乡政府，所以谈到政府不能笼而统之。有时某一级政府可能会犯错，这是可能的，在世界各国都很正常。但不能就此说整个中国政府错了，这不符合事实。

When they talk about government, there are different levels of government in China, like in the United States. You have the central government, you have provincial government, you have city government, you have village people. So you cannot talk in very general terms about the government. Sometimes government at a particular level may make some mistakes. This is possible. This is, I think, this is only natural all over the world. But you cannot say the whole government in China is making mistakes. This is not true.

英斯基普：中国是否欢迎美国卫生专家去中国协助抗击疫情呢？

Is China prepared to welcome American health experts into China to help with this?

崔大使：我们当然欢迎。我们欢迎各国专家来帮助我们。首先，世界卫生组织正协调组织专家组来华，其先遣组已经先期抵达并开展工作。其次，大家也要理解，全中国人民正全神贯注抗击疫情，我们必须采取有序方式接受外国专家。我们还要保护好这些专家，因为他们会面临被病毒感染的风险。

Of course we welcome them. We welcome experts of all countries to come to help us. But you see, first of all, the World Health Organization is sponsoring such expert groups. They have already sent an advance team to China. They are working in China. Secondly, people have to understand right now people in China are so preoccupied with their work to combat this virus, so we have to have some ordered manner to have experts from other countries. And also there's a real risk that they might be exposed to the virus. We have to take good protection of them.

英斯基普：美国疾控专家允许进入中国吗？

Will American experts from the centers for disease control specifically be let into the country?

崔大使：他们已向世界卫生组织推荐了一份（来华）名单，我们正与世界卫生组织进行沟通。

I think they have recommended a list of names to the WHO and this is all under the consideration in our communication with the WHO.

英斯凯普：但还没去？

But not yet that.

崔大使：我不了解最新进展，不过世卫组织在这方面做得很好。他们的先遣组已先期抵华做一切必要的安排。事实上，一些美国专家，比如哥伦比亚大学的利普金教授已经访问过中国并返回纽约。利普金教授自非典疫情以来，一直与中国同行开展合作。

I don't know the latest progress, but the WHO is doing a good work in this regard. They have an advance team already in China, making all the necessary arrangements. And actually some American experts, (including) a professor from Columbia University, Professor Lipkin already visited China, and he is now back in New York. He has been working with the Chinese counterparts for many years ever since SARS.

英斯基普：当美国人看待中国为应对这场危机所做努力时，一些人会很自然地将美国制度与中国制度进行比较，他们会问，如果危机发生在美国，情况会有什么不同？他们可能会说，为防止病毒传播，中国可以封锁整个城市的举动令人印象深刻，因为这在美国不太可能发生。但同时他们也会认为，美国的制度更加开放，人民在分享信息和获取可靠信息方面也更加自由。这可能就是美国人对比中美体制优劣的方式。您怎么看待这种比较呢？

When Americans look at China's effort to face this crisis, it is natural, I think, for some to compare the U.S. system to China’s system and ask how things would be different if the crisis were here. Americans might say it is impressive that China can shut down an entire city to try to stop the spread of a virus. That would not very likely happen in the United States. But they will also argue that the American system is more open and would be a little more free about sharing information and trying to get reliable information to the public. That is the way that an American might look at strengths and weaknesses of China’s system compared to the United States. How would you make that comparison?

崔大使：作为一名外交官，我通常不会将中国政府和美国政府进行比较，但人们可以有自己的观点。我们看到美国也曾遇到过自然灾害、紧急事件，比如几年前的卡特里娜飓风，你们的确没有封城，但城市却陷入混乱。我访问路易斯安那州时，那里的人们给我讲了各种各样的故事。我们对武汉等城市实施封城，目的是为了阻止病毒传播，为了保护更多的人。我们当然付出了高昂的代价，但这么做是为了更广泛的全世界的利益。如果不能阻止病毒传播，其他国家就会被殃及，从而造成国际性危机。因此，我觉得我们所做的正体现了“我为人人，人人为我”，这么做是为了全世界。同时我们也感谢国际社会的支持和帮助。

Well, as a diplomat, normally I don't compare the government of China and the government of the United States. But you can have your own views because you also have had things like disasters, emergencies here, like Hurricane Katrina some years ago, and you did not shut down the city, but there was total disorder in the city. I visited Louisiana. People told me all kinds of stories. So we are shutting down some of the cities, especially Wuhan, to stop the transmission of the virus, to protect more people. We are doing all this of course at a high cost. But we are doing this in the larger interests of the entire world. If we fail to stop the virus, it could spread to other countries. Then this would cause an international crisis. So this is, I believe, a real example of one-for-all, all-for-one situation. We are doing this for the world. And we appreciate that the world is helping us.

英斯基普：你提到了高昂的代价。中国封闭一些城市付出了高昂的经济成本等诸多代价。中国政府会不会到一定时候不得不承认付出的代价太高了？这是一种流行性疾病，一些人会死亡，但中国需要重新开放城市并恢复经济生产。

You mentioned the high cost. There is a high economic cost, among other things, for China to shutting down major cities. Is there a point at which China's government might have to decide the cost is too high? That this is a disease, it's endemic, some people will die, but you need to reopen cities and resume economic activity?

崔大使：首先，对中国来说，人民的福祉特别是生命安全和身体健康是第一位的，我们将不惜一切代价、尽最大努力予以保护。同时，人们也需要经济发展和正常社会活动，因此我们也在努力恢复正常的经济和社会活动。

First of all, people's wellbeing, their health, their safety, their life are the most important thing for us. So we'll do our best to protect people's wellbeing, in a sense, at whatever cost. At the same time, people also need economic development. They have to have the economy grow and more normal social life. So we are also trying our best to restore normal economic and social activity.

英斯基普：这可能需要多长时间？

How soon might that happen?

崔大使：这将取决于我们多久能控制疫情。

It will depend on how soon we can control the virus.

英斯基普：所以在疫情得到控制之前，你们会继续之前的努力，即使付出高昂的成本也继续走下去？

So you're going to continue this effort until the virus is controlled. There is not a point at which you would say, this is just too costly. We need to go on.

崔大使：我们有两条战线。一方面，我们正尽最大努力，举全国之力抗击疫情。与此同时，我们也正在尽我们所能，逐步恢复正常的经济和社会活动。例如，必须保障人们的日常生活所需。春节假期后，一些企业和工厂需要恢复运营。我们还在研究何时以何种方式开学。

I think, we are working on two fronts. On the one front, we are doing our utmost, and this is a nationwide effort to fight the virus. At the same time, we're doing whatever we can, to the extent we can, to maintain some normal economic and social life. For instance, people's daily necessities have to be provided. And some of the companies and factories have to resume their work after the Lunar New Year holidays and we are looking at when and how schools could be reopened.

英斯基普：此次采访前不久，中国政府大幅增加了确诊病例数量。当然这源于诊断方式的调整，并不代表实际感染人数上涨。但这引出了一个问题。您是否确信现在公布的病例数字是可靠的，是否确信中国政府掌握整个疫情的规模与程度？

Shortly before we spoke, Chinese authorities dramatically increased their reported number of coronavirus cases, which was an adjustment because of the way that the counting is done, not necessarily an increase in the number of cases. But that leads to a question. Are you confident that you now know a reliable number of how many cases there are and have an idea of the full scope of the problem?

崔大使：我认为掌握可靠数据非常重要，这就是我们每天更新各类数据的原因。正如你所说，由于诊断标准调整，确诊病例数量大幅上涨。这一调整非常有必要。用一些专家的话来说：“这是在努力张大防护网”。这样做，所有需要救治的病人都会被顾及到，也有助于疫情最终探底。

I think it's extremely important to have reliable numbers. That's why we're updating the numbers every day. And as you said, there was a dramatic increase, but because of the change of the diagnosis criteria. This is absolutely necessary. To use the words of some experts: “This is an attempt to widen the net”. So everybody who needs, who require(s) medical treatment will be included, will be covered. That will help us to get to the bottom.

英斯基普：现在探底了吗？您是否有信心?

Do you now have the bottom? Do you feel confident that you...

崔大使：这个问题只有专家才能解答。我当然希望疫情能尽快探底。

I think this is a question for the specialist to answer, but I certainly hope that we'll get to the bottom very soon.

英斯基普：您认为这场疫情会持续多久，中国需要多长时间才能控制住这场危机，几天，几周还是几个月？

Do you think that you might have this crisis in hand in a matter of days, weeks, months? How long might it take?

崔大使：我当然希望越早越好。但这取决于很多因素，包括我们的努力，包括我们是否在沿着正确的方向开展工作以及方法和工具是否有效。我们正竭尽全力，我对我们的科学家和医务工作者充满信心。

For me, it's the sooner, the better. But it would depend on our efforts, whether we are working in the right direction, whether the methods, the tools we are using are effective. But we are doing our utmost. I have confidence in our scientists, in our doctors and in our medical workers.

英斯基普：美国商务部长罗斯前几天就此次疫情评论称，他不愿就此次疫情表达喜悦，但疫情确实是企业在确定其供应链时需要考虑的一个因素。我理解他的意思是，这场疫情给美国企业离开中国又提供了一个理由。

Wilbur Ross, the U.S. Commerce Secretary, made a comment about the coronavirus the other day. And he said he didn't want in any way to be happy about the virus. But he said, (and I) quote “gives business another thing to consider when deciding on their supply chains.” I understood him to mean American businesses have another reason to think about going somewhere other than China.

崔大使：对他的言论，很多美国媒体和经济学家都发表了评论，表达了他们的观点。所以我没什么可补充的。

After his remarks, I've read a lot of comments from American media, from American economists. They have expressed their views. So I have nothing to add.

英斯基普：您指的是哪些观点？

Which views do you mean?

崔大使：哪些观点？据我所知，很多人难以苟同。

What kinds of views? As far as I know, many people disagree.

英斯基普：不同意他的这一表态？

With him making that statement.

崔大使：是的。

Yes, of course.

来源：中国驻美大使馆网站

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