sonnet18汤姆抖森（抖森和莉莉詹姆斯对话）

- The funny thing with Loki is he wants to let everybody know of his great high status.

洛基的有趣之处在于，他想让每个人都知道他的地位很高。

And, there's nothing like I mean status for comedy, really.

而且，在喜剧中，没有什么能比得上他的地位，真的。

It's anyone who thinks they're important.

他是那种认为自己很重要的人。

- So Ricky Gervais is all of those things. - Yeah, exactly! - He always is like... - It's like, you're not important.

就像瑞奇·热维斯（英国喜剧演员）表演的所有这些东西。- 是的，没错！- 他总是…… - 就像，你不重要。

So if you pump up the hubris, then humiliation can follow and then it's hopefully funny. - And then it's funny.

如果你的傲慢情绪高涨，那么羞辱就会随之而来，然后希望它很有趣。- 然后它很有趣。

- Hi, Lily.

嗨，莉莉。

- Hi, Tom.

嗨，汤姆。

- How you doing? - Nice to meet you.

你好吗？- 很高兴见到你。

- Nice to meet you. - No, we have already met, haven't we? At the UNICEF thing. - Yes.

很高兴见到你。- 不，我们已经见过面了，不是吗？参加联合国儿童基金会的活动。- 是的。

This is our first conversation.

这是我们的第一次谈话。

- Very exciting. - Very exciting.

非常令人兴奋。- 非常令人激动。

Why don't I start? Is that okay? - Well, now I wanna. - Now you want to start. - No. We were already talking about "The Essex Serpent".

我先开始吧？可以吗？- 现在我想。- 现在你想开始了。- 不。我们已经在讨论《艾塞克斯之蛇》这部剧了。

I got to watch it and it's so brilliant. - Yeah.

我看了，太好看了。- 是的。

And you are so incredible in it.

你演得太棒了。

- Mrs. Seaborn.

西伯恩夫人。

Yeah, Cora. - I never thought a country vicar would be so well-read.

啊对，科拉。我从没想到一个乡村牧师会如此博览群书。

- Oh, what a shocking lack of imagination.

哦，真是太缺乏想象力了。

- I kind of wanna know about that first meeting with Claire Danes.

我想知道你和克莱尔·丹尼斯第一次见面的场景。

What that was like to film?

拍摄是什么样的感觉？

- Well, she's playing Cora Seaborn.

她扮演科拉·海伯恩。

She's the heroine of the story.

她是这个故事的女主角。

She's a widow on the other side of grieving the loss of her first husband.

她是寡妇，正处于失去第一任丈夫的悲痛之中。

It was a very unhappy and abusive marriage and she's now free.

这是一段非常不幸，带有虐待性质的婚姻，她现在自由了。

And she's into Charles Darwin and Charles Lyell.

她喜欢查尔斯·达尔文和查尔斯·莱尔。

And she's out on the Essex coast where there's been a earthquake, and she's digging around for fossils and has this keen interest in the natural sciences.

她当时在艾塞克斯海岸，那里发生了地震，她正在四处挖掘化石，她对自然科学有着浓厚的兴趣。

And she runs into this very faithful and God-fearing community.

她遇到了一群非常虔诚且敬畏上帝的人。

And I play the pastor, the reverend, somehow.

我扮演牧师，神职人员，由于某种不明原因吧。

But they have this very unusual meeting where they don't recognize each other and they don't know the other person.

但他们有了一次很不寻常的会面，他们不认可对方，也不认识对方。

So it was an interesting meeting.

所以这次会面很有趣。

- Watching it, the kind of the landscape, there's so much brutality and it's so beautiful and atmospheric and dark and it's Clio Barnard, who's incredible. - Yes.

看这部剧，那种风景，那么原始的画面，可它又如此美丽、大气，暗色调，这都是克里奥·巴纳德（导演）的功劳，她太优秀了。- 是的。

- She captures that truthful harsh reality. - Yes. She's amazing.

她捕捉到了真实艰苦的现实环境。- 是的。她很了不起。

- What was it that drew you to that role next?

是什么吸引你接下这个角色的？

- You know, I think it was partly Clio.

我认为部分原因是由于克里奥。

I met her years ago actually in the way that you do, you know.

我几年前就认识她了，其实和认识你的方式一样。

I met her, we were both had films at the London Film Festival in 2008, maybe 2009.

我是在 2008 年还是 2009 年的伦敦电影节上认识她的，当时我们都有电影参展。

I'm trying to remember when it was.

我在努力回忆它是什么时候。

I'd seen her film and I really liked her and we had a really interesting conversation and I followed her work and I read this and it seemed so interesting.

我看过她的电影，我非常喜欢她，我们有过一次非常有趣的谈话，我关注了她的作品，我读了这个剧本，看起来非常有趣。

It was dealing with themes I thought were really resonant.

它所涉及的主题我认为非常能引起共鸣。

Dealing with uncertainty and anxiety.

应对不确定性和焦虑。

What happens to collective anxiety is it can start to sort of distort reality, and your imagination.

集体焦虑的后果是它会开始扭曲现实、扭曲你的想象。

If you don't have all the answers, it rushes in to fill the void in.

如果你不知道所有的答案，焦虑就会冲进来填补空白。

- Right.

对。

- War at the time between science and faith. - Yeah.

当时是科学与信仰之间的战争。- 是的。

- As a way of trying to explain life, and find meaning in it.

尝试用其中之一去解释生活，并在生活中找到意义。

And it seemed very romantic in a way, in an old fashioned way and yet really earthbound, and really of the land.

在某种程度上，它看起来非常浪漫，一种老式的浪漫，但又非常接地气，真正的扎根于土地。

Well, it's an allegory.

它是一则寓言。

The serpent is really the devil.

蛇其实是魔鬼。

There is no serpent in Essex.

艾塞克斯没有蛇。

- Do you actively choose stuff like you know obviously, there's so much that you just were drawn to and wanted to explore, but you know obviously, it's very different from Loki.

你会主动选择一些角色吗？显然，有很多东西吸引着你，吸引你想去探索，但很明显，它和洛基非常不同。

Is that a purposeful choice you make?

这部剧是你带着目的选择的吗？

- I mean, it was. - Couldn't be more different. - It couldn't be more different.

我是说，确实是。- 太不一样了。- 真是天壤之别。

I read it towards the end of making Loki.

我在拍《洛基》快结束的时候读的剧本。

And then we had like a week left and there was the Thanksgiving weekend.

然后我们还有一周的时间，就到了感恩节周末。

Everybody went home and we had a week left and I read it that weekend. And I found the argument really interesting.

大家都回家了，我们还有一周的时间，我在那个周末读了剧本。我发现这个论点非常有趣。

- I did, watching it, yeah. - This thing of how do we find meaning in our lives?

我明白，看的时候那种感觉，是啊。- 我们如何找到生活的意义？

What do we put at the center of how we find meaning?

在我们寻找意义的过程中我们把什么放在首位？

And these characters are all struggling, 'cause it's a time of such enormous change because, yes, the age of reason is coming and a world organized around religion, that's gonna diminish the idea of a mythical beast that's hiding and submerged in the water. I mean it's kind of...

这些角色都在挣扎，因为这是一个发生巨大变化的时代，因为，是的，理性的时代即将到来，一个围绕宗教组织起来的世界，将会减少那些隐藏并淹没在水中的神秘野兽的概念。我是说，这有点……

It's very psychological.

这是非常心理化的描写。

So it's kind of about the unknown.

这是一部关于未知的电影。

The Essex Serpent is the unknown and we fear what we don't understand. - Yeah.

艾塞克斯之蛇是未知的，我们害怕我们不了解的东西。- 对。

- And so every character has something I think that maybe psychologically is unknown and they're trying to get to grips of that through the course of the story and I love making it and it would be we're out on the marshes in Essex.

所以我认为，每个角色都有一些心理上未知的东西，在整部剧讲故事的过程他们都在尝试掌握这些未知，我很喜欢拍这部戏，那就是我们在艾塞克斯的沼泽地里。

- It's like so brutal.

完全的荒蛮之地。

- Yeah. And it was nice to be outside. - So beautiful, though. - Beautiful. - I think I find it when you are somewhere real and you're really out there in the kind of real landscape, and even if you are freezing cold and like...

是的。在外面感觉很好。- 太美了。- 是很美。- 我觉得当你身处真实的地方，置身于真实的风景中，即使你很冷，就像……

- You sort of, you put up with it. - Yeah, it kind of helps.

你有点，你能忍受那个冷。- 是的，能帮助演戏。

- Yeah. The sky is out there.

是的。天空就在那里。

That's where I realize all these painters had gone out there and there's something about the east-facing sunsets and the skies are extraordinary.

在那里我意识到所有这些画家都去过那里的地方，那里朝东的日落，还有天空都美得不像话。

So if you happen to catch yourself, you're doing a scene outside and suddenly gets about 4:30, 5 o'clock and the sky just does something you think, "Oh, this is why we came to Essex." - Yeah. Did you know Claire before or was it just like... - I didn't.

如果你碰巧发现自己在外面拍一场戏，突然到了四点半或五点钟，天空就会变得，让你想，“哦，这就是我们来艾塞克斯的原因。”是的。你以前认识克莱尔吗？还是只是…… - 我不认识。

Yeah. And we had a really, really good time.

是啊。我们度过了一段非常非常愉快的时光。

We made it during the third, I'm trying to get this right, the third lockdown.

我们是在第三次，我正在努力把时间说对，第三次封锁期间。

We in our little bubble is I'm sure, everyone's been in the bubble and...

我们在我们的小型“社交泡泡”里，我确定，大家都在泡泡里……（社交泡泡：疫情期间欧美国家设立的一种社交机制，在“泡泡”中的人可以被认为是一家人，无需保持社交距离，申请加入要获得相关批准）

- Which we kind of always do anyway, don't we? - Yeah.

反正我们一直都这么做的，不是吗？- 是的。

When you're filming you kind of like, I find I don't see, or like talk to anyone. - Yeah. Yeah.

当你在拍摄的时候，我发现我看不到任何人，也不会和任何人说话。- 是的。是的。

- Well, I guess I can get away with that at the moment, cause I don't have kids and whole thing.

我想我现在可以不经历这种情况，因为我还没有孩子家庭这些。

But you sort of end up bubbling.

但你最终还是会被放进“社交泡泡”里。

- You just get in the bubble. Yeah. - Yeah.

你还是要进入泡泡的。是的。- 是的。

- Yeah. It was so muddy.

是的。太泥泞了。

I think one of our location scouts ended up losing his wellies. - His legs.

我想我们的一位外景侦察员丢了他的长筒雨靴。- 他的腿。

- Losing his legs.

失去双腿。

Just never got out the mud.

只是从来没有脱离过泥潭。

Yeah. Yeah.

对，对。

It was so, I mean it sounds, it was so muddy.

我是说，那个地方太泥泞了。

It was almost comical how muddy it was sometimes.

有时泥泞到简直让人觉得可笑。

- I... see you mother... - What are you doing? - I see you.

我看见你了！- 你在干什么？- 我看见你了。

Yeah. Get the... outta here, you stalkerazzi piece of shit. - Do you wanna get sued?

对。快点滚出去，你个狗仔跟踪狂。- 你想被起诉吗？

Come on, come on. - You should be suing him for invasion of privacy.

来啊，来啊。- 你应该起诉他侵犯隐私。

- From the Essex marshes to sunny... - Southern California.

从艾塞克斯沼泽地到阳光明媚的……- 南加州。

- How was "Pam and Tommy"?

怎么拿到《帕姆与汤米》中的角色的？

How did it come into your life?

它是如何走进你的生活的？

- It was really random.

完全是随机碰到的。

This was a really out of the blue phone call and my impulse to do it was really immediate.

有一通非常出乎意料的电话，我马上就有了做这件事的冲动。

I don't know how you are about knowing what's the right thing to do or not to do.

我不知道你是怎么知道什么是正确的，什么是不正确的。

- Sometimes you just know, right?

有时你就是知道，对不对？

- Yeah. - You just go and that really appeals.

是的。- 你只是去了，这真的很吸引人。

- And other times it's this tortured.

其他时候它又是这么折磨人。

I actually kind of, I'll ask you that in a second.

我实际上有点，我一会儿就问你这个问题。

I find that the hardest thing is like knowing when to plunge and take the leap.

我发现最难的事情就是知道什么时候该占据主要地位。

- Yeah. - And with this, it was this impulse to really transform and do something completely different and take on something that I was so intimidated by.

是的。- 知道了这个，我就有了一种真正要转变的冲动，想要做一些完全不同的事情，去做一些我很害怕的事情。

I really didn't know if I could sort of, take on another person's skin and I really cared about you know the issues and the bigger picture of what we were exploring. - Of course. Yeah. Yeah.

我真的不知道我是否可以，完全扮演另一个人的外形，我真的很关心这些问题，也关心我们正在探索的更大的图景。- 当然。是的。是的。

- You know about privacy and the violation of the media and how dangerous they can be when they take on a narrative or decide to tear someone down or decide to sort of reduce someone.

关于隐私和媒体的侵犯，当他们采用一种说法或决定诋毁某人或决定贬低某人时，他们会有多危险。

And so amazing people involved like Craig Gillespie directed the first few and Sebastian Stan who plays Tommy Lee. - Yeah.

还有很多了不起的人参与拍摄这部剧，比如导演克雷格·吉莱斯皮执导了前几集，还有汤米·李的扮演者塞巴斯蒂安·斯坦。- 是的。

- When the project came to you, it was gonna be Craig and it was gonna be Sebastian Stan. And it was all a collected.

当你接到这个项目的时候，本来就是克雷格和塞巴斯蒂安·斯坦。这些都是集体安排好的。

- Actually. You know what? It was so early, it was like Writers' Room. - Right.

事实上。你知道吗？当时太早了，是在编剧室里。- 好。

Right. - I really don't know why they... Well, one of the writers said that the reason that they thought of me was because, it was playing Pamela Anderson much earlier.

好。- 我真的不知道他们为什么……嗯，其中一个编剧说，他们想到我的原因是，我在更早的时候扮演过帕梅拉·安德森。

I mean, she grew up in a very small town in Canada. - Yeah. - With very few people in Vancouver island. And I related to a sort of a sense of the newness of this whole thing.

我的意思是，她在加拿大的一个小镇上长大。- 是的。- 在温哥华岛上几乎没有人。我觉得这整件事很新鲜。我很有共鸣。

And then how quickly things can change and you can become more cynical or corrupted or whatever it may be.

然后事情变化得有多快，你就多有可能变得更加愤世嫉俗或腐败，不管最后会怎样。

- Your work is extraordinary.

你的表演非常出色。

I mean, just unrecognizable in it.

我是说，完全认不出来是你。

Certainly in comparison, the physical transformation and the vocal transformation.

当然相比之下，有外形身体上的转变和声音的转变。

And it's sort of you know taking on a real person.

这就像是在挑战一个真实的人。

I know such, it feels like such an enormous responsibility. - Yeah, because you've done it too.

我知道，这感觉是很巨大的责任。- 是啊，因为你也演过。

- It's terrifying. Isn't it? - Yeah.

太可怕了。不是吗？- 是的。

- You look at other people's careers. Who do you look to?

你看看别人的职业生涯。你以谁为标杆？

- Yeah, that's a good question.

嗯，这是个好问题。

I guess I would have to say Jane Fonda.

我想我会说简·方达。

- You want to honor and respect. - Right.

你想要荣誉和尊重。- 对。

Be a good custodian. Look up and be respectful.

做一个好的管理人。抬头挺胸，受人尊重。

I felt like if I came at it with heart and with like total understanding and desire only to be honest and to take care of the story and what happened as much as possible, that was all I could really do.

我觉得如果我全心全意地去做，完全理解角色并渴望表演好，只是诚实地做，尽可能多地表演这个故事和发生的事情，这就是我真正能做的一切。

But it was I don't know if I'd do it again anytime soon. - Yeah.

但我不知道我还会不会再演这类戏。- 是的。

Yeah. - But when you, because when you played Hank Williams, right? - A long time ago. - A long time ago.

是的。- 但是当你，因为当你扮演汉克·威廉姆斯的时候，对吗？- 很久以前了。- 很久以前。

- He died when he was 29.

他 29 岁时去世了。

He's a link in a chain, really of music.

他是音乐发展链条中的关键一环。

- Yeah. Right.

是的。没错。

- People like Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen. And they're all like, "We're only doing this 'cause Hank was doing it.

像鲍勃·迪伦和莱昂纳德·科恩这样的人。他们都说，“我们做音乐只是因为汉克正在做音乐。

So, I'm like, "Okay." - Oh, I didn't know that. - Good to know.

于是，我说，“好吧。”- 哦，我不知道。- 很高兴告诉你了。

But... - It can fuel you that sort of...

但是……- 它可以给你那种……

I felt like that desire to do her justice and to really morph was so frightening that I'd never worked harder, you know. - Yeah, right. Of course.

我觉得那种想要为她伸张正义，想要真正转变形象的愿望是如此震慑人心，我从未如此努力过。- 是的，没错。当然。

You could tell.

看得出来。

And I thought, cause the show, I suppose it opens with their connectedness, and their passion and their connection to each other.

我想，因为这部剧，我想它以他们的连结、他们的激情和他们彼此之间的联系为开场。

And there's a really interesting idea that I think the whole show explores and particularly through your performance, which is the complexity of what it means to be a public person.

我认为整部剧都在探索一个非常有趣的概念，特别是通过你的表演来看，那就是作为一个公众人物意味着什么。

And when a persona is almost created on your behalf. - Right. - And you don't have any possession over it and that can then be manipulated and distorted.

当一个角色几乎是为你而创造的时候。- 对。- 你对它没有任何所有权，然后还可以被操纵和扭曲。

The scene where Pamela's prepared that, is it episode 3, Pamela's prepared that big speech to do the next day and she's gonna nail it and you nail it as her nailing it. And then you turn up on set and the producers say, "We thought it was stronger." - Better wordless. - Wordless. - Yeah.

帕梅拉做准备的场景，是第三集吗，帕梅拉准备了第二天要做的重要演讲，她要做好演讲，你也会演好这场戏，就像她要做好这个演讲一样。然后你出现在片场，制片人说，“我们认为它要更有力。”- 最好是不说话。- 不说话。- 是的。

- They cut my monologue.

他们剪掉了我的独白。

- What?

什么？

- Yes.

是的。

They said it was stronger wordless.

他们说不说话会更有力。

- Wait. - God, anyway, it's not a big deal. It's not a big deal. It happens all the time. This is so good. We should eat. - That was your big scene. - I know.

等等。- 天啊，反正也没什么大不了的。这没什么大不了的。这种事经常发生。这太好吃了。我们应该吃饭。- 那是你的大场面。- 我知道。

- I thought that really showed there's this perceived potency that she has, but also vulnerability.

我认为这确实显示了她所拥有的这种感知能力，但也有脆弱性。

And then the wrestling about coming back the next day saying, "I think we should... " - I think we're gonna do it.

然后就是艰难面对，第二天回来说，“我想我们应该……”我想我们会成功的。

And to go beyond people's perceptions and to like, that's not okay and that's not enough.

超越人们的认知，这还不行，这还不够。

It was really bad in that time with a lot of these women, their stories you're sort of revisiting of like, they did this show with Monica Lewinsky, and how we collectively treated women you know in the past. But still today, these sort of double standards, I still feel that's difficult you know.

在那个时代，很多女性都过得很难，你都可以重新回看她们的故事，比如，她们和莫妮卡·莱温斯基一起做了这个节目，以及我们过去如何共同对待女性的。但直到今天，这些双重标准，我仍然觉得很难改变。

It's still hard sometimes to go against what people assume of you, whether that even be like in work or in the press and the perception that...

有时仍然很难违背人们对你的看法，无论是在工作中还是在媒体上，而人们对你的看法……

Sure. - I dunno, it's hard to ignore it all sometimes and push through it all. And I don't know how you... - Yeah.

当然。- 我不知道，有时很难忽视这一切，并坚持下去。我不知道你怎么……- 是的。

Where do you begin with becoming Pamela Anderson in terms of the physical transformation? I'm sure you had amazing teams.

从外形身体转变的角度来说，你从哪里开始成为帕梅拉·安德森？我相信你们有很棒的团队。

Hair, makeup, wardrobe.

发型，化妆，服装。

- Yeah. God, the best, like the best you know that you could never ever do your job without them, I mean.

是的。天啊，最好的团队，真的是最好的团队，没有他们你就无法完成你的表演。

Initially, I started training, 'cause I just had like pictures of Pamela everywhere around me and I actually lost like 20 pounds, which is crazy, 'cause I wanted to be athletic.

起初，我开始训练，因为我身边到处都是帕梅拉的照片，我其实减掉了 20 磅，这很疯狂，因为我想健壮一些。

I wanted to be so strong as opposed to just like drop weight.

我想变得非常强壮，而不是为了减肥。

And then I yeah, had these prosthetic boobs, forehead. - Nice. Yeah.

然后我，对，做了假胸，假额头。 - 厉害。是的。

- All this took 4 hours every day.

所有这些每天都要花 4 个小时。

- And during that time I would just sort of sit, I had like a montage of all her like interviews from the 90s and I would just start tuning in to her voice and her sort of like almost learn it like a song, like the pitch and the rhythm.

在化妆期间，我就坐在那里，把她 90 年代的所有采访剪辑成蒙太奇，我开始听她的声音，就像学习一首歌一样去学，学她说话的音高和节奏。

She speaks really, really, really fast.

她说话真的真的真的很快。

And then I would, like, her hair and her hands and I just like watched her so much and stayed in her kind of like the whole time.

然后我会看她的头发和她的手，我一直看她，一直待在她的精神躯壳中。

How long was the shoot?

拍摄了多长时间？

- I think it was 4 months or 5 months. - Goodness.

我想是 4 个月或 5 个月。- 天哪。

But I... - You're still doing all the training while filming. - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

但是我…… - 你还在一边拍戏一边训练。- 对，对，对。

- I didn't stay like in character, but I didn't speak English for the entire 5 months even at home.

我没有一直活在角色里，但我整整 5 个月都没有说英语，即使在家里也不说。

- Really? - Cause I just thought if I slip up once and now I do that awful thing where someone's talking American and I start going, I start like talking... - You start talking American.

真的吗？- 因为我想如果我失误一次，现在我做了一件可怕的事情，别人在说美国话，我就开始说……- 你开始说美国话。

Yeah.

是啊。

No, but it's lots of actors do that and it's easier, isn't it?

不，不过有很多演员都这么做，这样更简单，不是吗？

It just feels almost like you've played an establishing chord at the beginning of the day.

这感觉就像你在一天开始时演奏了一段已经调好的和弦。

You just wanna stay in the chord. - Yes, exactly.

你只是想保持和弦不出错。- 是的，没错。

- You don't wanna be in some other tune, you know.

你不想换成其他曲调。

- Right.

对。

- And I find out the... - Could be caught asking for a, you know, "Can I have a sandwich or something?" - Yeah. Going to the loo.

我发现……- 可能会被抓住问一句，“我能吃个三明治或别的什么吗？”- 是的。去厕所。

No, the bathroom. No, the restroom. - Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Wow.

不对，去卫生间。不对，去洗手间。- 对。对，没错。对。哇。

I can relate to that. - Yeah.

我可以理解。- 是的。

- So did you think that people on the crew, did they ever get to know Lily James, really? Or were they just... - I don't think so.

你觉得剧组的人真的了解莉莉·詹姆斯吗？或者他们只是……- 我认为他们不了解。

And nor with Sebastian Stan, as Tommy, we really didn't get to know each other till we started doing press at all.

也不了解塞巴斯蒂安·斯坦，他扮演汤米，我们直到开始做媒体宣传时才真正了解彼此。

It was sort of like, "Oh." It was kind of almost awkward.

就像是，“哦。”有点尴尬。

And also 'cause we were just earlier talking about bubbles and COVID.

也因为我们刚刚谈论了“社交泡泡”和新冠病毒。

When we shot that, it was the same thing.

我们拍的时候也是一样。

So... and the days were so long, like 18 hours.

所以……白天都很长，大概 18 个小时。

And so I find that the Americans are worth for the long days than us more respectable.

因此我发现，美国人比我们更值得拥有更长的白天，对他们而言更重要。

- You mean just going... - Longer days. - Yeah, yeah. - Oh my God.

你的意思是只是去…… - 更长的白天。- 是的，是的。- 哦，我的天啊。

I found that so hard, it was like...

我发现这太难了，就像……

But I guess it was 'cause of the prosthetic.

但我猜是因为假体的原因。

How has that been with you as a little thing in with, to Loki of like, you don't have any prosthetic, but it was probably long days, but getting in the whole thing of being here. - Yeah, I mean Loki's changed so much over the years for me. It's been like...

拍洛基的时候，你没有戴任何假体，但可能是很长的一天，不过整个拍摄过程是怎样的。- 是啊，洛基这些年来对我来说改变了很多。就像……

- It's been such a long experience. - Huge journey. Yeah.

这是很漫长的经历。- 漫长的拍摄旅程。是的。

- What's that like?

那是什么感觉？

- It's amazing. I mean I was cast when I was 29 and I'm 41.

感觉非常好，我 29 岁的时候被选上参演，现在我 41 岁了。

- Credit to you for having like let him emerge and grow and shift and... - Well, and to everybody at Marvel for letting me do it and the audience actually who I'm sure if they stopped being interested would let me know.

感谢你让他出现、成长、转变……- 感谢漫威的每一个人，感谢你们让我出演，还有观众，我相信如果他们不再对我感兴趣了，他们会让我知道的。

Initially, I had so many different iterations with Loki and the costumes are so elaborate, and I was wearing a wig and we were shooting in the summer in New Mexico and Cleveland.

最初，我演的洛基有很多不同的迭代变化，服装非常精致，我戴着假发，我们在新墨西哥州和克利夫兰的夏天拍摄。

I was always trying to break out of the mask of letting something honest come through. - I totally had that with Pamela all the time. - Right.

我总是尝试打破脸谱化，想诚实的演出一些东西。- 我演帕梅拉一直都是这样。- 对。

You build the character, you build the exterior and then you have to express something through the mask in a way.

你塑造了角色，塑造了外观，然后你必须通过面具以某种方式表达一些东西。

I suppose that's what hair and makeup is. It's a mask of something.

我想这就是发型和化妆的作用吧。这是某种东西的面具。

And by the time we got to the series on Disney Plus, what's great about it was Loki's stripped of all the things that are familiar. - Right.

当我们在 Disney Plus 上看到这个系列时，最棒的是洛基被剥去了所有熟悉的东西。- 对。

- Yeah. - Immediately, he's literally stripped off his clothes and put in a jumpsuit and then other clothes and his status is gone and he's nowhere near Thor or Oden or Asgard, all these things.

是的。- 他马上就脱下衣服，穿上连身衣和其他衣服，他的身份就消失了，他根本和雷神、奥登或仙宫（北欧神话中的建筑）没有关系了，所有这些神话类的事物。

And I wanted to... one of my big things going in was like, "I'm gonna grow my hair and I'm gonna dye it." It's just gonna be...

我当时，我最重要的一件事就是，“我要留头发，还要染发。”这只会是……

- Strip it all away. - As natural as it can be so I can spend all my time investigating the interiority, you know rather than worrying, just saying, "I think everyone knows who the character is now." And also let's open him up and... - Go deep. - Go deep and find new aspects of him and challenge the character to change and grow. And so it's really, I loved it.

把它全部去掉。- 尽可能地自然，这样我就可以把所有的时间都用到研究人物心理内在，而不是担心，只是说，“我想现在每个人都知道这个角色是谁了。”而且让我们打开他和……- 深入了解。- 深入了解，发现他的新方面，挑战角色的改变和成长。所以我真的很喜欢。

It was really fun.

这真的很有意思。

- And you are so, it's like amazing how funny, first of all, you're so funny.

你太有趣了，首先，你实在太逗了。

And then also it's like deeply vulnerable.

而且人物又非常脆弱。

- Yeah. - Which is so moving, which is... - That's the cocktail with him. - Yeah. - That's the weird... - So impressive.

是的。- 这就很感人，这…… - 这是他的半醉人间。- 是的。- 这很奇怪了…… - 太厉害了。

- Well, it's a writing thing and a massive tip.

这是剧本的功劳还有很多的技巧。

It gets such an ancient character.

它有这样古老的特征。

You know, he's the God of mischief so like.

他是恶作剧之神。

I remember looking it up ages ago in the dictionary and it said inclination to playfulness. And I was like... - That's an actor. - Yay. That's an actor. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

我记得很久以前在字典里查过这个词，上面写着爱玩。我就像……- 那是个演员。- 耶。那是演员。是的。是的，没错。

Like that's what you've gotta do is play.

你要做的就是玩。

- Yeah. - Always make sure there's a strain of playfulness in there. - A game or a thing.

是的。- 一定要保证里面有很好玩的气氛。- 有游戏之类的东西。

The funny thing with Loki is he wants to let everybody know of his great high status and there's nothing like I mean status for comedy really.

洛基的有趣之处在于，他想让每个人都知道他的地位很高，在喜剧中，没有什么能比得上他的地位。

It's anyone who thinks they're important. - It's like Ricky Gervais. - Yeah exactly.

是那种认为自己很重要的人。- 就像瑞奇·热维斯。- 是的，没错。

It's like, "You're not important." So if you pump up the hubris, then humiliation can follow and then it's hopefully fun. - And then it's funny.

就好像，“你不重要。”如果你的傲慢情绪高涨，那么羞辱就会随之而来，然后希望它很有趣。- 然后它很有趣。

- But you sort of play it with a straight bat, especially in the show, 'cause he does this thing in "Avengers: Endgame", picks up the cube and disappears.

但你是直来直去地演，尤其是在这部电影里，因为他在《复仇者联盟 4：终局之战》里做过这样的事，拿起立方体就消失了。

He's essentially broken the rules of reality, which is he's done something he's not supposed to do.

他基本打破了现实的规则，也就是他做了一些他不应该做的事情。

So he's arrested apprehended by this organization, the TVA who like exist outside of time.

所以他被这个组织逮捕，时间变异管理局就好像存在于时间之外。

And they make sure that reality unfolds according to predetermined.

他们确保现实按照预定的方式展开。

- So everything is predestined. - Yeah.

所以一切都是命中注定的。- 是的。

And Loki's the God of chaos.

洛基是混乱之神。

So he's like, it's order versus chaos and immediately he's just constantly being humbled and brought down to size.

所以他就像，这是秩序与混乱的对抗，很快他就不断被轻松打败，被贬低。

And, so, there's just richness for everything in there.

所以，所有东西都很丰富。

For drama, for comedy, for vulnerability.

对于戏剧、喜剧、脆弱方面来说都很丰富。

So it's a great conceit and... - Even more enjoyable maybe from doing the movies or all this all sort of...

所以他的骄傲自大很伟大…… - 也许拍电影会让你更享受……

- Different. - Longer. - Yeah. Longer. - I like doing a TV show 'cause you get so much longer to be in the character. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - To like let it unfold. - More time.

感觉不同。- 时间更长。- 是的。更长。- 我喜欢拍电视剧，因为你有更多的时间融入角色。- 是的，是的，是的。- 我喜欢让人物徐徐展开。- 有更多的时间。

- The first director with Loki was with Ken Branagh.

拍洛基的第一个导演是肯·布拉纳。

- Yes. We share this. - It's a shared thing. - We kind of share this like life changing moment.

是的。我们聊过这个。- 这是一起聊过的话题。- 我们分享了这个改变人生的时刻。

- Yeah. - We both received a phone call from Kenneth Branagh. - Kenneth Branagh.

是的。- 我们都接到了肯尼斯·布拉纳的电话。- 肯尼斯·布拉纳。

- And it's changed everything.

它改变了一切。

- Yeah.

是的。

And I wondered how much he was a part of, 'cause for me, when I did "Cinderella" with him, there was a huge journey of collaboration.

我想知道他参与了多少，因为对我来说，当我和他一起拍《灰姑娘》时，我们合作拍摄了很长时间。

He was like, "I wanna know how she, does she sleep with the blinds shut?

他说，“我想知道她，她是关着百叶窗睡觉的吗？”

Yeah. - You know, what she eats first thing in the morning?" And I wondered if you'd, you know developed that with him? - He's amazing like that.

是的。- “你知道，她早上第一样东西会吃什么？”我想知道你是不是和他一起创作角色的？- 他真是太优秀了。

- Yeah. It's such a testament to his generosity as a director as well, that he just understands actors and understands that if you can find connection points that are internal, that may never be known about, everything you do will have a ring of authentic truth to it. - Truth and authenticity.

是的。这也证明了他作为导演的慷慨，他很了解演员，他知道如果你能找到内在的、可能永远没有知道的连接点，你所做的一切都会有一种真实的感觉。- 真相和真实性。

Yeah.

是的。

- And so yeah, before the first film, back in 2009, Chris Hemsworth and Anthony Hopkins and Rene Russo and I would sit around a table and delineate this little family drama and talk about you know Thor and Loki's childhood and all these things that became baked into the relationships that maybe weren't expressed in the story.

在拍第一部电影之前，也就是 2009 年，克里斯·海姆斯沃斯、安东尼·霍普金斯、雷内·罗素和我会围坐在一张桌子前，描绘出这个小小的家庭戏剧，谈论托尔和洛基的童年，以及所有这些融入到关系中但可能没有在故事中被表达的事情。

But you could feel between us all as actors, which is really, you know, that's a real director.

但我们这些人能感觉到，我们作为演员，真的，他是一位真正的导演。

- Yeah. I was reading about this, which is so exciting, which is Loki is the first queer Marvel character.

是的。我看到了这个消息，太激动人心了，洛基是第一个奇怪的漫威角色。

How do I... In the MC, is it MCU universe? - MCU universe. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

我怎么……是在漫威电影宇宙中吗？- 漫威电影宇宙。- 是的，是的，是的，是的。

- And I get that right, 'cause it's very important. - No. No. It's "The Marvel Cinematic Universe". - Yeah.

我说对了，因为这很重要。- 不，不，全称就是“漫威电影宇宙”。- 是的。

- Yeah. I can't believe.

是啊。我真不敢相信。

I'm amazed if that's true.

如果这是真的，我很惊讶。

It may be that in the films, in the sort of film stories, it might be true.

也许在电影中，在电影故事中，这可能是真的。

But you know, back from my early days of researching the character in the ancient myths, the identity of Loki was fluid in every aspect.

但你知道，从我早期研究古代神话中的角色开始，洛基的身份在各个方面都是不确定的。

In gender, in sexuality.

在性别上、在性取向上都不确定。

It's something... a very ancient part of the character.

这是……一个非常古老的角色。

I thought about it.

我想过了。

It hadn't emerged in the stories we've told.

它并没有出现在我们所讲述的故事中。

And I was really pleased and privileged actually that it just came up in the series.

我真的很高兴，也很荣幸它能出现在这个系列中。

It's a small step.

这是一小步。

It's not as far as there's so much more to do.

这不是很大步，因为还有很多事情要做。

You know the Marvel Cinematic Universe has to reflect the world we live in. - Right.

漫威电影宇宙必须反映我们生活的世界。 - 对。

- It was an honor to bring that up. It was really important to me. It was really important to Kate Herron and Michael Waldron. And I'm please that we could bring it into our story.

很荣幸提到这个问题。这对我来说真的很重要。这对凯特·赫伦（导演）和迈克尔·沃尔德伦（编剧）来说真的很重要。我很高兴我们能把它带到我们的故事中。

- Yeah. And how incredible what impact that can make on such a widely seen universe, which becomes people's like religion going back to... - Yes, yeah, yeah.

是啊。这对如此广阔的宇宙世界产生了多么不可思议的影响，这成为了人们的宗教信仰，可以追溯到…… - 是的，是的，是的。

- And for people to feel represented and to see themselves. - Absolutely. Yes. - Like it's just so important. - Yeah, yeah.

让人们有被代表的感觉，看到自己。- 当然。是的。- 感觉这很重要。- 是的，是的。

,